Success Secrets from Marshall Arisman:

• You’ll always make better pictures when the subject matter is meaningful to you. Even if it’s bowling, your enthusiasm will come out in the pictures.
• You have to go inside yourself and find your own subject matter and develop it. And then you start the process of going out and talking to people.
• Try not to think of your craft as a business. Try to think of it exclusively as “personal work.”

Early beginnings:

I went to Pratt Institute in New York City from 1956-60. Studied graphic design. Thought I liked it. Got out. Got a job at the General Motors Tech Center in Detroit, and after 3 months I realized I hated working with people. (Laughter) That in fact I didn’t like graphic design. And, I didn’t’ like solving other peoples problems.

So went to Europe, went through the Army. Got out, and kind of got into illustration backwards, meaning that I was looking for something that wasn’t a full-time job. I was looking for something that I could do alone. And so a friend of mine was freelancing, and that’s how I got in. It was an attempt to run away from everything else, I guess.

The problem with my initial portfolio was that I was trying to please everybody but me. I freelanced for three years and wasn’t making enough money to live on, so I decided it was time to make pictures about things I actually knew something about

Instead of trying to market myself as an illustrator, I did a series on guns. I was brought up in a small town, Jamestown, New York, where everybody has a gun. My brother’s been carrying a handgun since he was 15. He’s now 72 and he still tapes a handgun to the middle of his back before he goes to work everyday. (Laughter).

I realized, when I was about 28, that the things I actually had knowledge of were guns and deer, because we hunted deer and butchered deer. And because I grew up on a dairy farm, we butchered and ate cows too.

I’d never made pictures of guns. So I did a series of drawings, and they expanded into a book called, Frozen Images. And not realizing it, I had made a portfolio. And so when the book got printed I sent it to some of the art directors that I’d seen, and I suddenly started getting the sort of work that I would have done for myself.

That was one of the little ironies in life. In essence I categorized myself. Which is fine, because it was me who did it. I became known as the gun, violence, and death guy. And I’ve been busy ever since. (Laughter)

Thoughts on changes in the field of illustration:

When I was in school Robert Weaver was changing the face of illustration. I mean, illustration in the 50’s was basically dominated by women’s magazines.

So Al Parker and all those guys were basically painting pretty ladies and taking sentences right out of the story. Illustration was mostly just applying the medium to the text.

Weaver really broke the back of that idea. He began to tell two stories at the same time in his illustrations. He began to work with visual essays and actually gave me hope that the printed page could do more, I think, than paint pretty ladies, which I was not good at.

I don’t know how much of his work shows up in mine, but definitely he was the one I was looking to, to hold out hope for the printed page.

Thoughts on getting started:

You have to go inside yourself and find your own subject matter and develop it. And then you start the process of going out and talking to people. Otherwise you’re a ship out there without a sail. You’re style without content. You’re decorating pages.

When I did the interview for Communication Arts, it was what we call the ‘good ol’ days. The great thing about that time was you could see everybody. And, everybody saw everybody.

I saw Dick Gangle at Sports Illustrated and Henry Wolfe. I saw a lot of really good people. One could actually sit down and show them work, but those days are gone. Art directors don’t see people anymore.

The element of feeling you were working on something quite real, meaning you could actually talk to the people who were doing it is gone, which is a shame. It’s just more disconnected. I mean work is now gotten through websites. There was a middle period there where there were “drop off” days when people could drop off their portfolio, but now that’s kind of stopped too.

Changes in the market:

Obviously things have changed since the drop-off days. About five years ago maybe, maybe more, eight, the editorial illustration market began to take a real hit for a lot of reasons. The computer was one — Photoshop — and suddenly there was less interesting work to do in the magazines.

I chair a graduate program at a School of Visual Arts in New York, and a lot of what my students and I are doing is self-initiating more of our own projects.

Thoughts on self-initiating projects:

I have a children’s book coming out in the spring that I wrote and illustrated. I wrote a novel that I’ve illustrated that I’m trying to find a publisher for. I’m working on a book of stories about the artwork that I’ve done and whatever.

I think a lot of people are doing that, which is, in a funny way, infusing the field. People are doing toys and games and animation and stuff they never thought they would do. And part of the reason is that the editorial market is not as strong as it was, and people are just looking around for outlets.

On writing children’s books:

I’ve done two other books for the publisher, Creative Editions, but not ones I’d written. I did a book called The Wolf Who Loved Musi,c and years ago I did a Grimms’ Fairy Tales for them. The illustration in that book were really brutal. (Laughter)

In my current book, and by the way, I play the saxophone, there’s always been an urban legend that Charlie Parker was the inventor of Bebop. He played two solos at the same time. But he played at such a speed you couldn’t figure it out.

But anyway, the book is a bad joke. It’s is about a cat who plays one tune with his front paws and a second tune with his back paws at the same time and invents Bebop. (Laughter)

And what’s funny is that the publisher didn’t have a clue what Bebop was, so we got into all these funny e-mails where he started calling himself “the square.” So at the end of illustrating the book I did a 15-minute DVD based on the book. I did it only to be able to put a soundtrack with the book so that if somebody actually read the book they would have some idea what this might have sounded like.

And they’re going to put the DVD into the book, which is nice.

What’s interesting to Marshall about illustration:

The stories that surround the artwork are always more interesting to me than the artwork itself. And it’s been a luxury frankly, to be able to spend most of my life making pictures about things I’m interested in. And they generate all kinds of other things. I feel lucky about all that. I’ve had the time to do it. I mean I don’t know what it is I’ve done, but I’ve had the time to do it.

There’s an interesting difference between the work I do for myself and the work I’ll do for a magazine. The stuff I do for myself tends to generate stuff that I can then apply in a magazine illustration. But because of the timing of the illustration I don’t really have time to explore something in any depth. Does that make sense?

So my personal work becomes the well, if you will.

Marshall’s work schedule these days:

I’m at the School of Visual Arts two days a week. I do about one illustration a month. I don’t look for more work. I don’t have an agent either. And the rest of the time I’m pursuing my own obsessions. It’s a good life. (Laughter)

The keys to success:

If you’re lucky, and you go back to yourself and you start talking about yourself, you suddenly find out that there’s a connection there between you and other people.

Communication is part of the fun, right? It’s just so good when people respond, and say, “I know exactly what you mean” or “These pictures mean something to me.” That’s the nice communication.

It’s also the nice thing about being into print. All kinds of people are looking at it and I don’t have a clue who they are. It’s part of the fun, I think.

Thoughts on fine art versus illustration:

Every gallery I’ve ever had has said, “You’ve ruined your fine art career by doing illustration. You got too well known and everybody thinks you’re an illustrator…” which in this society is still a tainted word. When fine art critics want to punish a painter they called them an illustrator.

Marshall’s thoughts on having a representative:

I had three grips early on in my career. But it wasn’t the rep’s fault. They were trying to get me work. But, they were getting me work I didn’t want to do, that I couldn’t relate to. So after three of those people, I thought, “the problem isn’t theirs, the problem is mine.” I realized I was better off listening to myself when somebody called me, and trying not to think of my work as a business.

His toughest, most difficult realization:

I killed the creative spirit in my own mother. Watching this process was the most difficult thing I’ve ever had to do. My mother was a folk artist and made sheep out of bread dough that were her masterpieces. In an effort to bring her more income I marketed her abilities to the Smithsonian gift shop. The sheep sold out on the first order and they re-ordered. After designing a logo, tags invoices and opening a bank account for my mother I called her to find out how it was going. “Don’t ever interfere with my life again” my mother said. “I am so sick of making sheep that I could scream.” My mother never made anything again. The issue was never resolved. The morale is: Do not foll around with the creative process.

On attending conferences:

I’ve attended a few. Less lately though, because the conferences are getting less creative-process-based and more business-based, which I frankly understand. But business is an area that interests me less than the creative process.

Marshall’s tips on building a career:

Make a list of things you have knowledge of, whether it’s bowling or drinking coffee or dogs, and make pictures from that list. Don’t tell yourself it’s a portfolio, but show it to people.

You’ll always make better pictures when the subject matter is meaningful to you. Even if it’s bowling, your enthusiasm will come out in the pictures.

On getting good clients:

Over the years I’ve worked for basically the same 10 people. I started with Fred Woodward when he was an assistant art director at the Dallas Times Herald. And when he went to Texas Monthly, I worked for him there. And then he went to Rolling Stone and I worked for him there.

I mean my mailing list is 50. It isn’t 5,000!

Thoughts on advertising for new business:

Every time I’ve taken out an ad, and I’ve taken a couple in books like the Blackbook and the Workbook, I never got anything back. I sort of knew that going in.

Somehow what I’m doing is very thin slice of the pie, and not generally applicable, which is fine. I don’t have any problem with that.

How illustration has changed:

It’s not really a depressing time. But, if you talk to old-time illustrators, they’re all depressed. These are people who were booked up six months in advance. People who never had to pick up a pencil unless the phone rang. People who made more money every year with the same style for 30 years, and it looked like it was going to go on forever.

But it hasn’t. And those people are bitter. And that’s a shame. But that’s not what it’s about anymore. One of the ironies for me is that the very group of people who are trained to tell stories, the illustrators, never told their own stories.

They applied themselves to somebody else’s text. And that’s OK as long as the art director was very clear which illustrator belongs to that text. But most of the time, that’s not the case.

The less defined the art director is with a point of view, the broader perspective you’re going to get, and those general assignments are not going to take you anywhere.

Marshall’s thoughts the new directions of illustration:

I don’t know if it’ll ever come back again where someone can spend 30 years with the same style, working continuously, making more money every year as an illustrator. I think those days are gone.

But what’s replacing that is quite exciting. People are doing graphic novels and comic books. People are creating games and whatever. And what’s generating that, is that freelancing editorial work, which was the mainstay of illustration for most illustrators, is not a market that they can rely on totally anymore.

They’re doing some freelance. And, they’re patching it together with everything else, doing Flash animation and all kinds of things.

Some good stuffs being done.

About Marshall Arisman:

The paintings and drawings of Marshall Arisman have been widely exhibited, both internationally and nationally. His work may be seen in the permanent collections of the Brooklyn Museum, at the National Museum of American Art and the Smithsonian Institution, as well as in many private and corporate collections.

Chairman of the M.F.A. degree program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, Marshall Arisman was the first American invited to exhibit his artwork in mainland China. His series, “Sacred Monkeys,” appeared at the Guang Dong Museum of Art in April 1999.

Mr. Arisman is the subject of a full-length documentary film directed by Tony Silver titled “Facing the Audience: The Arts of Marshall Arisman.” The film will have its premier showing at the 2002 Santa Barbara Film Festival.

Interview by Will Sherwood, MA, MSP
CEO/Chief Creative Officer
The Sherwood Group, Graphic Design / Web Design
24402 Vista Ridge Drive
Santa Clarita, CA 91355

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Success Secrets from David Lai:

• The most important thing, no matter what area you choose to specialize in is, “Do good work.”
• Find people you admire, that are smarter and know more than you, and you’re off to a great start.
• Challenge yourself. Our field is still young, and that means there’s tons of opportunity to do things people have never imagined.

Early beginnings:

I didn’t go to design school. When I was in high school I had a real interest in design and art and started out by doing icon design. I did it more as a hobby, and really got into it when I realized there’s an application for this sort of thing.

I remember one company that had a really horrible set of interface icons. I designed a new set for them, and being young and naive I just sent them to the company and said, “Hey, these are better! You guys should use them.”

And they actually did. And you know I did it for no money. Next time around, the company came back to me, and paid me to do more work for them. So that was my first entry into design.

That led me to writing a book about icons, while I was still in high school. A friend of mine said, “Hey a lot of other people want to know how you do this.” And I thought, “Okay.”

At first I thought I’d just write something short, something that you could give out to people for user groups and situations like that. But a friend suggested, “Hey, you should submit this to a publisher.”

I did, and the publisher loved the idea. So we created a book called “Icons for the Masses.” It was an avenue of understanding for the icon and interface worlds

At that point, my parents were fairly typical, saying: “We’re not going to pay for you to go to school if you go to art school.” That was fine in the sense that they convinced me to get a liberal arts education.

They said, “if you want to go to design school you can always do that afterwards.” So I entered college as a biology major. And it wasn’t that I didn’t like science, it was that I realized in the end there’s a career that comes with that. Unfortunately it wasn’t something that was interesting to me.

So throughout college I found myself trying to design things on the side, whether it was for a school poster or just anything. I would jump at the chance to do something and get it out there and see how people responded to it. And I was pretty bad back then, I think. (Chuckling)

I learned a lot by doing that. I learned what was good and bad, just by doing. Fortunately it was an easy environment, because in college nobody cares, or at least nobody knows good design per se, at least where I was, since it wasn’t a design school.

In college I wrote another book called “Photoshop Type Magic.” I wrote the book because I wanted to teach myself Photoshop. The concept was, “Why don’t I write a book as if I was the person who would use it?” The whole idea was to create a recipe book where you’d go through, step-by-step, and end up with this result.

At the time, most of the Photoshop books had this magical end result and you didn’t know how they got there. It was like, you start with this and all of a sudden your type looks like wood. And they had skipped steps 1-20!

So, I learned layers and masking and things like that by actually understanding how the application actually works. It was a step-by-recipe book, similar to a cookbook, but for the digital creative realm.

The book did really, really well and became a bestseller. I think it led to the whole “magic” series. It’s still out there. I didn’t write the other books, but I created the concept. Now there’s Flash Web Magic and Illustrator Type Magic and there’s all these books that came out as a result of that. All I did was uncover the niche that a lot of people were hungry for. Learning something by doing it, that was my philosophy.

First job for a major firm:

While I was still in college, while in my junior year in Japan, I sent out my portfolio to a lot of different places and was given the opportunity to work with Clement Mok in San Francisco.

It was a great opportunity to learn from someone I admired and who was doing some amazing cutting edge work. His company was one of the few companies that were doing websites for big companies at the time. He had left Apple Computer and was already on his own.

I was there right there when they were transitioning from Clement Mok designs to Studio Archetype. It was when the company was shifting into new media. We were doing Nintendo 64 packaging, and at the same time we were doing Nintendo’s website.

It was one of my first big breaks in the sense I got a chance to throw my design ideas in the ring, so to speak, and since the client really liked my design, I got a chance to design Nintendo.com. That was really exciting and gave me some validation that I could work in this industry.

After working there, I went to a small design shop here in Santa Monica called cow. C-O-W, like the animal. That was probably well over 10 years ago. They were one of the first innovators. They were doing some great work in CD-ROM and touch screen, and obviously the web too.

That was an interesting time. There was a transition from more contained interactive media where it was on a disk but not really networked and shifting to something more internet based and open to anyone. That’s where I learned a lot, about interactive design as well. I think they were great conceptual thinkers.

I met my future business partner, Hiro Niwa, at cow as well. He was the first lead designer they had ever hired. He had spent pretty much, up to that point, his whole career at cow.

He was ready to go off on his own and that’s when we decided. I got a call from the Getty museum to come and pitch them, and invited Hiro. Long story short, we won that project and they became our first client.

So that’s how we got started and it’s been 10 years now. It’s happened quite quickly.

Acquiring new business at first:

I’ve always had a passion for design, but I also think I have a passion for business. I think I love both.

For some designers, the business side’s a burden. They really don’t enjoy it. And I’d probably say, Hiro, my partner, is more like that kind of person. He’s not so interested. He knows what’s happening on the business side, but it isn’t his passion per se. I think his passion is clearly in design.

For me, I sort of split down the middle. I love both. I love being involved in both. I knew, even in college, that I wanted to run a studio, my own studio one day, hopefully.

I was really naïve and ambitious back then in thinking, “Maybe I’ll do this straight out of college.” I remember cold-calling clients out of my dorm room (chuckling). And I think that it could have worked. I think the problem was I felt like I needed more experience and I wanted to work with people who were a lot better than me.

And I did just that. That’s what gave me the experience and credibility to go out on our own.

When we started, Hiro and I had a reputation from work we had done previously. Hiro had done a project for Mercedes Benz for the E-class timeline and it was a CD-ROM piece. I think it won like 9 or 10 awards. It was really a well-recognized piece back in its day.

As an interface it’s still relevant. To me, that’s really the test, whether it’s a timeless design.

Our reputation helped us get word of mouth for clients. Our second client was NEC Design in Tokyo. Within our first year we grew quickly from 2 people to probably 10. And we were doing work for the Smithsonian, for National Geographic.

The Smithsonian called us, and not the other way around. But, I think it was both because of people who had known our work or maybe referred us. We weren’t really cold-calling to be honest.

Our awards drew the attention of the big companies. The awards we won for the Smithsonian work, prompted National Geographic to call us. And believe it or not, they called us the day after the CA annual came out. They said, “Hey, we saw your work in Communication Arts. We never call anyone unless we see them there.” So that was really nice.

Our philosophy is, “Do good work and everything else happens.” I think that was the case with National Geographic. And it’s always been our focus. If you focus on doing good quality work, the rest will happen, as opposed to going about it the other way.

We started out wanting to work for diverse clients. We didn’t just randomly choose whoever knocked on the door. We were selective about who we worked with because we wanted to create a place where we’d want to work, but also do the kind of work we’d enjoy. It wasn’t just to pay bills. It was to do work that we felt was rewarding or challenging, or gave us the chance to be innovative.

So we followed the rule of: “Do great work, quality work, work that gets you excited, and you will get more of that.”

David’s thoughts on new business development:

Believe it or not, we have no new business development program in place. We don’t have a Director of New Business or anything like that.

But a lot of clients who’ve knocked on our door are clients who seem to have been following our work. It’s been really exciting.

Last year, Nordstrom and even MoMA called us and said, “We’ve been following your work for a couple of years.” It was exciting to hear that, because we had no idea. It’s nice to know there are people out there watching us and seeing what we’re doing. Hearing that fuels us and keeps us going.

Favorite Accomplishments:

We work with interesting groups. Last year, we worked with SCI-Arc. Right now we’re working with Otis. We just did a project for the Broad Art Foundation. At the same time we’ll do a project for Callaway Golf, or Toyota or WIRED and so that diversity of work is one of the things that we’re really proud of, just because we’ve kept true to that idea of not just doing the same thing over and over again.

We have a passion for doing R&D work here, too. Back in the early 2000 era (chuckling) we did a project called, ‘Hello Code’. It’s still up there actually. I remember we showed it at a conference. I think it was Flash Forward in San Francisco. It was really exciting for us because we didn’t show any commercial work. It was just conceptual thinking, some interface design, some ideas. And we did it mainly to inspire people to do more of this, to push our medium.

I think I’m really proud of that because for us, that was trying to get our industry to move forward and to not just doing the same old thing and copying what other people do.

Today we’re building a multi-touch table in the studio. It’s not quite perfect but we’re doing it for ourselves. There’s no client paying us to do it. We’re trying to figure out the hardware, and we’re trying to create software for it. I think there’s something really exciting about learning things on your own. That’s really important for us in terms of saying that’s an accomplishment: to keep learning new things. If there’s anything I’m proud of, that’s one thing that we’re really excited about here.

David’s thoughts on the keys to success:

It’s definitely passion for what we do, and the fact that we care. I personally work on all our projects in some capacity, whether it’s conceptualizing, brainstorming, art directing, whatever it is. I look at every piece of work that comes out through the studio, but not as a dictator who says, “you gotta do this,” but more so out of caring for the work. I think if you lose that, and you don’t care anymore and it’s just good enough, I don’t think you’re going to be as successful.

Passion for design translates into doing better work, and the clients realize and can see that. There may be people who view work as work, but this is our life. We’ve spent a lot of time trying to build a place that can create things that we can be excited about and at the same time accomplish what our clients need them to do. They’re not pieces of art, just for us. We’re actually trying to create things that work for our clients.

You need to believe in your ideas though, because though we’re not “yes” men, at the same time we do listen to our clients.

It’s that delicate balance that you can bring your knowledge to the table and they can bring their knowledge to the table and if you work together, hopefully you’ve got a synergy and you create something that you couldn’t have created by yourself or visa-versa. That’s really important. And for us, this philosophy creates successful projects.

Also, you definitely need to have determination, the ability to keep going and to not give up. It’s not just talent. It’s not just about having the best designers on the planet. They must be people who can work together as a team, and people who can get up after they fall down. You may make some mistakes, or you may have some projects that you thought would be amazing and didn’t quite turn out the way you wanted, but you’ve got to be able to learn from that and keep going.

Thoughts on doing things differently:

It’s always different when you look at things in hindsight, I think.

The answer is probably yes and no. (Chuckling) I say “yes,” because there’s definitely things that you wish you may have done a little differently. I think “no” because you may not have ended up here if you had done those things.

It’s so hard to go back and say, “What if I had done this” and “What if I hadn’t done this.” We have a policy here. If you give something 110%, and you really feel like you gave it your all, whether it’s on a project or a pitch or whatever it is and you don’t win, or the client didn’t love it, we say, “That’s OK.”

In essence, you have to go through life with no regrets. And that’s how we approach our work. That’s how we approach the clients that we work with too. We want clients that challenge us and want to be challenged by us.

If you never take a shot at the goal, you’ve already lost the game. So our philosophy is, “Take a shot at the goal and do your best, not just half-assed. And even if you don’t score, that’s okay.”

Thoughts on business advisors:

We do have advisors or consultants that we work with, but they were out of business necessity. Our attorney is a business advisor in a way because there are things that we need to watch out for with our agreements and so forth. We saw that as important because if they were done right, we could avoid problems. That’s the whole point of a contract, to keep you out of court, so you don’t get into trouble.

There’s also a financial advisor that we work with and have worked with for many, many years now as well in a similar capacity. I’m not an accountant. I didn’t go to business school. So for me to try to understand things that go into the nitty-gritty of accounting and so forth would be counterproductive.

It’s been the amazing to have a sounding board and a more objective outside party give you their thoughts.

David’s thoughts on seminars and workshops:

I’ve gone to several conferences. Sometimes I’ll go to lectures or when a certain person is speaking that I really admire. I definitely think those are great outlets to expand your thinking whether it’s on business or design as well as other topics.

Tips for people just starting out:

Our industry is so broad. There are so many different things you can do within it. There’s the design side. There’s the strategy and account side. There’s the technology side. Depending on your area of interest, I think I would give different pieces of advice. Depending on your skill set, and depending upon your passion and interest, there are different areas where you can achieve success.

On getting good clients:

The most important thing is, “Do good work.” Quality over quantity is the key. If you did one amazing piece of work, that’s all you need. You don’t need to do ten so-so projects. Nobody’s going to care, because at best you’re just a follower. Somebody will say, “Oh, your work just looks like everyone else’s. It doesn’t stand out.” Then you become a commodity and you become like every one else.

The way you get great clients is by doing great work. If you do something, even just one project that’s really innovative and interesting, more good work will follow.

Additional advice to someone just starting out:

The field is still young. We saw the first web browsers in the early 1990’s. It hasn’t been that long. There’s so much potential, in this medium. If anything it’s a huge opportunity for somebody to jump in there and do something new and push the medium.

Challenge yourself. It’s still early and that means there’s tons of opportunity to do things people have never imagined. That’s what excites me about this medium. I’m in this everyday and I still can’t keep up with it all. It’s definitely going to be different in five years. I guarantee it. And that’s exciting.

For anyone starting out in the field, realize you don’t have to know everything. It’s OK. Just jump in and keep learning. If you do that, at the end of the day you’ll have some ability to impact that evolution of the medium.

Who would have imagined we’d have multi-touch phones like the iPhone five years ago? So in five more years, who knows what there will be?

Find people you admire, that are smarter and know more than you, and you’re off to a great start. Just by putting yourself in that position you’re going to learn from those people.

Toughest Challenge:

One of the toughest things I’ve ever had to do is resigning a client, especially one that is paying most of our bills. One day I quickly realized I wasn’t happy coming to work and nor was my team. As soon as this client referred to us as a “vendor,” I knew we were going to be in trouble. They didn’t trust us and at the same time there was what we called “indecision by committee.” There wasn’t a visionary to help drive the project forward.

We realized that at the end of the day, it was best to resign this account and quite scary not knowing how we were going to pay the bills. In the end, it was the right decision, we landed amazing clients after that and found that we were once again smiling on our way into work.

On the importance of staying in balance:

Whenever I get a chance I love to go cycling. It’s great to do something where you can just get away and think, whether it’s going for a swim or going for a bike ride.

The other thing that I really, really like doing is traveling. My wife is Japanese so we go back to Tokyo every year. And every time I go back it’s always a new experience. Wherever you go, whether it’s a city that’s an hour away or New York City, it doesn’t really matter. It’s exciting not just for design inspiration, but because you’ll see a different culture or a different world. For me, it’s a great relief to go somewhere new and experience something new. It’s about throwing yourself into a new place and a new experience. I really enjoy doing that.

Also, I enjoy doing anything that gives me a chance to stop thinking about work. Even so, solutions to questions I’ve posed tend to seep into my awareness without my knowing it. While at the same time, I’m just enjoying the view and having a great time.

About David:

David is the CEO, Creative Director of Hello Design, an interaction design studio which he co-founded in Los Angeles in 1999.

Clients include Sony, USA Network, Yahoo!, General Mills, National Geographic, Oakley, Toyota and Nike. A graduate from Cornell University, David has won numerous awards for his work including a Cannes Cyber Lion, One Show Pencil, ADC Merit, and a Flash Film Festival award. His designs have also been featured in Communication Arts, HOW Design, I.D., Critique, eDesign and Print Magazine.

As a faculty member at the Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, David taught and lectured on web design. He was also on the Advisory Board of the AIGA Los Angeles.

Interview by Will Sherwood, MA, MSP
CEO/Chief Creative Officer
The Sherwood Group, Graphic Design / Web Design
24402 Vista Ridge Drive
Santa Clarita, CA 91355

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Success Secrets from Clive Piercy:

• You really need to identify who you want to work with. I don’t think you should start your own business too early.
• If you do really good work, you get good work coming to you. I believe that’s the best thing you can do.
• The way to do good work is to attract clients who push you to do what you do best and know the difference between you and somebody else.

About Clive and Air Conditioned:

Air Conditioned is the Santa Monica-based design office of Clive Piercy. For the previous twenty years, Clive was founder, partner and Creative Director of Ph.D, a studio internationally recognized for work characterized by its appropriateness, character, style and wit.

A|C’s mission is to work together with smart, creative clients, on projects large and small, to produce idea-driven solutions that engage, enrich and resonate. Would you like to work with them?

Early beginnings:

I got a job while I was still in college, a great job at BBC Television in London. I got recommended for the job by the only tutor that I got on well with. It was a very glamorous job, but I realized afterwards that they really only hired me because I was a good soccer player, and I could play for their soccer team.

It’s the truth. The guy said to me, “I’m going to hire you. I really like your attitude, but I don’t particularly like your work.” I was very cocky. I thought I was really something. It was a good awakening.

Apprenticing with one of the greats:

I worked as an assistant there for 2 years for the guy who was generally regarded as the resident genius there. His name, Graham McCallum. And he was fantastic, but he was a lazy devil. He’d done it all really. And so he would give me his work to do, and because he was getting all the best work, as an assistant I was getting better work than all the designers there.

They very quickly made me a graphic designer, and I was actually the youngest designer, but when they made me a designer I went to the bottom of the designer rung. So I was getting worse work as a designer than I was as an assistant. (Laughter.)

Since I was kind of hotheaded, I just said, “I’m done with this. I don’t want to do this. I’m better than this,” that kind of thing. I was brash. I just left.

I’d always wanted to work in print. I kind of stumbled into BBC graphics, just because they offered me the work. I didn’t know anything about film or animation or live action or anything, but I survived fine. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was one of the greatest work experiences I’ve had.

Moving to America:

My wife, Ann Field, and I had previously been to America on a couple of jobs and we thought, “Let’s give America a shot.” You know? We came for six months and we we’ve been here 26 years.

I’d always wanted to come to Los Angeles. I’m a big fan. I tell everyone that I was surprised Los Angeles was in color when I got here. (Chuckling.)

I grew up watching Billy Wilder films and looking at Max Yavno photographs. I liked the notion of Los Angeles in the 40’s. I wanted it to be like James M. Cain, Raymond Chandler, Nathaniel West and all that.

It’s a very glamorous place for anybody. If you ask most people, they’d like to come to California.

Starting out in Los Angeles:

When I came here, I went to work for Rod Dyer. I went to him because everybody great has worked for Rod. And so from my reputation, he said, “Oh, I’ll hire you. I’ll give you some work if you come over.” I became the creative director there, and stayed for 5 years.

As you know, Rod does entertainment graphics. Over time I realized I was not cut out for that. And so I decided I was going to start my own company, but I didn’t want to do entertainment graphics which kind of cuts out 90% of the work. But I knew I wasn’t right for it.

Thoughts on the dangers of charging too little:

When I worked for Rod, I had a slew of freelance clients. And because I had a full-time job, I was charging my clients virtually nothing. The minute I started my own company, I started charging properly and they all dumped me. (Laughter.) Right off. They all just dumped me. They were using me primarily because I was cheap, and not because I was good. There was another factor in it. It made me realize that you have to make sure that the financial side is in place before you do any work.

Going into business:

Since entertainment wasn’t my preference, I decided to go into business with my partner Michael Hodgson. We formed the company, Ph.D.. We’d known each other from college in England. But, there was no logic or rationale in it. It was just, “Oh, let’s…”

I found an old studio. But I still wasn’t sure I wanted to make the move. So, I went on holiday and said, “If I come back and this studio is still for lease, I’m gonna’ take it.”

New business acquisition at first:

At first, our business came mostly from word of mouth. I had managed to start getting a good reputation by doing good work, and people just referred clients to us.

We had no business plan or anything. But work started coming very quickly and we realized we needed to get a little bit more serious about it. So we consolidated and turned it into a real business. We worked together successfully for about 20 years.

Starting business as Air Conditioned:

After 20 years, Michael and I split up.

I essentially had a mid-life crisis and just did not want to do what I did anymore. We had a biggish company and I realized I’d been the creative director all the time. I basically had done the vast majority of the work and I found myself giving work to designers that I wasn’t proud enough to do myself, just to keep a big office open.

That’s a very typical dilemma that you run into when you become more established. As we grew, so did our staff. I felt that I had lost the me, if you know what I mean. I just stopped being a designer and I was finding myself doing less and less of what I wanted to do. I came to the realization that I really wanted to do something about the types of clients we were getting. I didn’t really want to do more corporate work.

I’d always enjoyed working with other creative companies. That’s really how I became successful, by working with other creative companies. And we were moving away from that. So after 20 years, we drifted apart. He had a family, and was more involved with other things. Besides, our chemistry had changed, and I wanted to see if I could operate in a more enjoyable way.

Thoughts on choosing projects:

By now, I’d been around a long time and lot of good will was being shown towards me from the community. And I really, really love that. I think I’m a popular guy in the business.

I could do a ton of work, now, but I really just want to take on the jobs I feel I’m appropriate for. And I’m able to see it in a slightly clearer light now.

I’m the creative director of a big clothing company, Roxy. So I have that as a massive monthly commitment. And then I’m able to choose the jobs I want to work on, and I have a small group – 5 people. At the moment that’s all I want. I really feel like this is the way. This is what I should be doing for a while.

New business acquisition today:

The fact I have a new company with a new name and a little bit of a new image helps. I call the company Air Conditioned because I want to have a very kind of light touch on the work. I don’t want to be a show off designer.

I’ve done a new website and that seems to be very popular, but I’m not sending out pieces or doing brochures and all that stuff. I feel that’s kind of old hat.

As the creative director at Ph.D., I was on the front end, so I knew all the clients. And a lot of them just followed me when I moved. Also, I’ve never had a problem with repeat work. We never had much attrition, or falling off rate.

Design influences:

Tibor Kalman, influenced my work, for sure. And, more importantly the people who’ve worked through his offices have too. Steven Doyle, for example, is my favorite designer. And we’re good friends. I think there’s a mutual respect there, but I love his work. He’s the one person who I’m most envious of in this business, talent wise.

Also, I‘ve always had a great love of work of Pentagram. When I started being interested in graphic design, it was in the late 60’s, you know, the Fletcher/Forbes/Gill, Robert Brownjohn and all that great classic 60’s English design.

Classic work. Simple, idea-driven work. I loved all that. And I still really respect the integrity of the majority of Pentagram’s work. Paula (Scher) is the embodiment of a great designer whose work continues to develop and inspire.

Favorite accomplishments:

Teaching is a very big part of what I do. I only do it one day a week, but it’s an integral part of my life, and it has fueled my creative soul in a big way.

It’s allowed me to connect with students. I love doing that and it tests me every week. I’ll tell you another thing, in a selfish way, I get to see good students and sometimes they come and work with me. So that’s been great. And, to balance teaching with my work is the thing that I enjoy the most.

Thoughts on doing things differently:

I went into partnership with a friend who was a fellow designer, and neither of us had much business sense. And because I was the “better” designer, Michael said, “Well, let me try and do the business side.” And that ended up being a frustration all around.

I don’t think he particularly would’ve wanted to do that, but he knew he could be better served in that area than being entirely on the design side. So I guess that was a major error, not having much business sense. In the long run, it didn’t hurt us, but it was frustrating.

Other designers may have done better financially than I have, but I still have a nice little house, a beautiful wife, and I think I get great jobs and all of that.

Clive’s Toughest Challenge:

Well, undoubtedly the toughest thing I’ve had to face in life is the loss of my parents back in England, with me being in California. I’m not sure I’ve been able to translate those experiences into positives that I can bring into my business. I do think that I’ve gained a new perspective on what I consider to be important to me. My beautiful wife, the amazing Ann Field, illustrious illustrator and Chair of Illustration at Art Center College of Design is the reason I’ve made it through.

Tips for people just starting out:

If you do really good work, you get good work coming to you. I believe that’s the best thing you can do.

You shouldn’t be thinking, “We’ll do this. We’ll try our best on the next job.” You’ve really got to be turning out good work in order to get it, in order to attract it. And, by definition, that means then that you’ll get good designers coming in your doors who want to work with you. All those things help.

Thoughts on getting good clients:

I would say the same thing. Just do good work. I do feel that that is the key.

It took me a long time to realize this, because I used to think that the way to do good work was to find a client that you could force into accepting the things you want to do for them.

I used to joke that the client brief should be, “Give me a logo and make it look like I spent a lot of money on it.” That was it. And I realized that there are plenty of people that can do that, but it wasn’t for me.

It took me a long time to realize that the way to do good work is to attract clients that know the difference, who push you to do what you do best and know the difference between you and somebody else. That’s been the most enjoyable thing. It’s the most worrying too, because we all have egos and anxieties and everything. And you just keep wondering, “Can I do it this time around?” But that’s what keeps me going. I love that.

I’m looking for clients that are better than me.

Clive’s thoughts on careers:

You really need to identify who you want to work with. I don’t think you should start your own business too early. There are many pitfalls that you’ll go through. As I said, I teach at Art Center College of Design. I see all the graduating students and they still need a lot of mentoring. They need to go to work for a really good art director for a while and see how it’s done. That’s what I would urge and not to diverge too much from where they think they should be.

First off, they should know who they want to work for, and I find most of them don’t. The majority of them have never heard of the good people. And so you need to identify who you think you’d be right for and they need to bone up on what those people do and then really, really target the kinds of places they want to work. Then, they should gear their portfolio towards that. And I don’t see that. They’re often like lemmings pushed off a cliff most of the time.

Additional Thoughts:

I tell all students that the first day when I’m teaching them, “There are already enough graphic designers in the world. We do not need you.”

“But the difference is there aren’t enough great graphic designers. And that should be your aim.” I like saying that. I feel like that gets them into the spirit. It charges them up a little bit, most of them, if they can be bothered to get out of bed.

Interview by Will Sherwood, MA, MSP
CEO/Chief Creative Officer
The Sherwood Group, Graphic Design / Web Design
24402 Vista Ridge Drive
Santa Clarita, CA 91355

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Follow Will Sherwood on Twitter?
Connect with Will Sherwood on LinkedIn
The Sherwood Group’s Facebook page
Will Sherwood’s Facebook page
The Sherwood Group’s website

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Secrets of Success from Jack Anderson:

• Starting the office is one of the best things I ever did professionally.
• Chasing the dream of being “one of the most influential design firms in the United States someday” is what really drove us through the challenging times.
• Our naivety, not knowing what was around the corner, not knowing what was ahead, and not knowing the challenges we would face is what’s grown us into the successful business we are today.

Early beginnings:

I started out studying engineering, transferred into architecture, then into industrial design with a little stint in interior design, and ultimately landed in graphics, all in the very limited environment of Montana State University. I managed to extend their 4 year program into 5, before graduating with a degree in what was called Professional Design back in 1975.

Mixed in there were a lot of art, photography and industrial arts classes, and frankly, I graduated feeling somewhat handicapped that I had a little taste of a lot of things and really not much skill in any one specific thing.

As it turned out, it was probably one of the greatest gifts I could have ever received. When I look back now, a big part of the reason Hornall Anderson is what it is today is because of that diverse background.

After graduating in 1975, I came to Seattle, accepted a job at an architectural firm called TRA Richardson Associates and, for 5 ½ years, I did title blocks, the occasional brochure, and a lot of environmental graphics or way finding.

When I started branching out into the community I met a gentleman by the name of John Hornall. This was when I was still in college and showing my book around. I courted him for nearly the full 5 ½ years that I was at the architectural firm. Ultimately, we got together at Cole & Weber, where he managed the design group. We were there for a year and a half together, before striking out on our own in 1982 when we started Hornall Anderson.

Deciding factors about going into business:

It was an interesting set of circumstances. John and I had a thriving little design group within Cole & Weber. We were in a satellite office in Seattle. One of our major clients was Westin Hotels, and when they changed their name from Westin International to Westin Inn, we had the opportunity to do a lot of really cool projects with them. We were out on our own and enjoying a fair amount of success, but the main agency wanted to pull us back into the mothership.

Simultaneous to this, I’d had a number of partnerships in small-scale real estate ventures. I’d bought homes and was fixing them up with some buddies of mine, and had experienced the process of what a partnership looks like, both contractually and in reality.

So, when Ron Elgin formed a brand new agency called Elgin Kirkland Syferd, which later became BBD Seattle, he asked John if he would be the design department inside their new agency. I said, “Wouldn’t it make more sense to have our own firm?” Long story short, we started Hornall Anderson Design Works, and Ron Elgin, Dave Syferd and Terry Kirkland became investors in our firm.

It was a nice deal for everybody. It was good for us because, not only did we have a little bit of financial stability, we also had access to some of their shared clients—specifically a client by the name of Princess Tours. This served as a foundational start for us.

We hit the ground running. You’ve heard that axiom: practice-based business versus business-based practice? We wanted to be a practice-based business. It was for the love of the craft and the freedom to do the kind of work we wanted that drove us into business, not because we wanted to be business people that happened to do design.

I don’t think one way is right and another way is wrong, but I do think that chasing the dream of being “one of the most influential design firms in the United States someday” is what really drove us through the challenging times.

On acquiring new business at first:

We experienced what I think a lot of young firms do. We were so busy doing the work that was in front of us, we neglected marketing to get new work. We experienced some of the roller coaster where things slow down and we would either answer RFP’s or call friends of friends. It was more of a guerrilla effort to make sure that at least our name was being considered locally for some of the assignments that were coming up. Little by little we established a presence in the community. And at least we were getting invited into the consideration process.

Acquiring new business today:

It’s a whole different game. Today we have about 120 full time staff people and probably another 15-20 contract people. It takes a lot of work to keep everything in a fluid state of optimism and with us playing to win.

We’ve been really, really fortunate to have a lot of continuous work from long-term clients, and from people who’ve moved on to new companies then returned to us for work. So ,we’ve built a lot of loyalty. Not just with companies, but with individuals. That growing network of friends and family has really been the key to a lot of our success.

Jack’s strategy for developing new business

We have a Director of Revenue. She’s got a team of people that report to her.

We also have a sales force, plus a support group that serves them. And for our existing clients, we have a very aggressive account service group that’s been able to garner a lot of our business.

We’re into year two of experimenting with this sales strategy mix, and it’s been getting us invited to some bigger conversations outside of the RFP process.

Biggest accomplishment:

Starting the office that would grow into a stand-out company is probably one of the best things I ever did, professionally.

Jack’s biggest success secret:

Most of all, our naivety, not knowing what was around the corner, not knowing what was ahead, and not knowing the challenges that we would face is what’s grown us into a fairly major business. That innocence, that naivety, is what allowed us to go forward and play to win. It’s been a challenge at times, but I sit here today and feel like the luckiest guy in the world.

I’ve surrounded myself with a group of people that include some of the smartest, most entrepreneurial, talented people with which I’ve ever worked. And we’ve got a distinct culture. It’s been a lot of work to get us to this point, where we have this phenomenal group of really bright people that totally believes in the “one plus one equals five” theory.

There’s an interesting mix of people from different nationalities, different walks of life, different professional backgrounds. It’s a brain trust that allows us to do some of the most exciting, innovative work we’ve ever done. I’m really proud of that. The group of people I work for is the best we’ve ever had.

The “one plus one equals five” theory:

You may know a lot of people who are incredibly talented, and in their own moment of genius, could sit in a cubicle and create greatness. But there are other factors that influence their success.

Being truly talented is one thing. Being a leader and the best-of-the-best is another thing. But to be a leader that can actually inspire other people to greatness, well, that’s the “plus” factor. Those people in our company are the most valued. A single genius is appreciated. But someone who can inspire and cajole, or whatever you want to do, to get a group of people going in the same direction, and where people are building on each other’s ideas, well, that’s ideal. This is an example of when one and one, instead of equaling two, equals three or five. That’s what it’s all about.

Thoughts on Teamwork:

Teamwork is a cheap phrase, and it’s a cheap concept, because everybody talks about it. But it’s harder to actually create an environment that is built on a team with people in the creative business. I’m really proud that we’ve been able to do that.

Thoughts on executive coaching:

Three years ago, we joined Omnicom. And prior to that I had hired an executive coach to work with me to transform myself into more of an inspiring leader. The process of getting some executive coaching ultimately lead to an opportunity back at Harvard though Omnicom called The Senior Management Program for two summers in a row. That really changed the face of this office. Currently, all three of my partners, in addition to myself and a few of my direct reports, all have executive coaches that basically help in our leadership.

On transforming a company:

Coaching has totally transformed what I believed was a good office into a great office. I’ve had numerous conversations now and again with either peers or people at Omnicom, and am asked, “What was the single thing that happened to you guys as an office that really helped you leapfrog out of where you were into something greater?” And though the coaching certainly wasn’t the only thing, it definitely played a big part.

On the value of business seminars and workshops:

We have a sizeable budget for career development inside this office, and a lot of things fall inside of that. We have on-site training and also send people off-site to attend courses and seminars. In my day, I attended a number of those. I don’t currently, because I’m involved in a lot of meetings back in New York and on the West Coast with the Omnicom network, while still trying to get some work done. (Laughter)

Granted, that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in them. I actually think staying in touch with colleagues and both people of like mind and of different backgrounds is the secret sauce to this whole thing.

On the importance of staying balanced:

I’m absolutely in favor of maintaining personal balance. I’m an avid cyclist. I ski, I’m a climber and I work out every day. It’s part of the way I manage my energy level. Those are the physical things that I do to keep me balanced.

I’m also fortunate to have a great partner and support in my wife. We’ve been together thirty-seven years, and have a wonderful daughter. I’m also a closet architect/developer with a project or two always in the process of either being designed or built.

New opportunities:

Actually, one of our current greatest opportunities for growth, and probably some of the most exciting work we’re doing, is in the area of built-environments, similar to what we did at the top of the Space Needle. We’re also working with a number of developers. We’re actually doing interior architecture and creating experiences comprised of both analog and digital. It’s huge. And they are all branded. I guess it’s in our DNA.

Tips for someone just starting out:

It’s all about relationships.

I’m making a gross generalization, but I think a lot of people get into it for either artistic or selfish reasons to express themselves. Those aren’t bad. It’s just that in order to really be successful in this business, you’ve got to put your clients’ needs in front of your own (without compromising your values or standards, obviously), and then figure out a way to give them something that really makes a difference to their business, while at the same time, provides you with a sense of fulfillment.

Building relationships:

It’s a dialogue. It’s not a monologue. It’s a relationship. And I think when clients sit across the table from someone who is truly inquisitive and interested in solving the problem in a way that actually makes a difference—whether it makes the phone ring, means more clicks on the mouse, or brings someone through the door; that’s what it’s all about. The problem needs to be solved and the client needs to feel like they’ve got a partner sitting across from them, an interested problem solver and not just a graphic designer. That’s what builds relationships.

Thoughts on trust:

To me, relationship is the key to all of this. Without relationship, you don’t have trust. And once you’ve got trust, you can do some amazing design work. But until you have it, it’s a we/them, or vendor/client situation.

There are a lot of people out there, and we deal with this in our own office, particularly with some of the new kids, coming to us with a little bit of entitlement. They think they do great work, and in a lot of cases they do. But doing great work isn’t enough.

Thoughts on the opportunities today:

(Laughter) I wish I was just starting out. I think this is such an amazing time to be in the marketing services business. Years ago, when we first started, we spent a lot of time trying to convince the clients that what we were doing for them had value. A lot of clients thought it was a necessary evil and more of an additive thing, as opposed to what I call a legitimate business weapon. Thank God for Phil Knight, Howard Schultz and Steve Jobs, who actually showed the world that branding, marketing and advertising were in fact legitimate business weapons.

Tips for someone just starting out:

First, be as inquisitive as you can. I truly believe that someone who’s inquisitive, curious and asks questions, and who’s got an appetite for a lot of different input is ultimately going to be able to solve the problem in a more unique, well-rounded way.

The people who are successful in our office think in different media. They don’t think in terms of just print. They think in terms of digital. They stay abreast of all that’s going on in the industry. They really don’t think about it as graphic design, per se.

So stay fresh. Stay informed. Don’t be one-dimensional. Be and think three dimensionally, literally and figuratively. And buckle up, because it’s a roller coaster ride.

Interview by Will Sherwood, MA, MSP
CEO/Chief Creative Officer
The Sherwood Group, Graphic Design / Web Design
24402 Vista Ridge Drive
Santa Clarita, CA 91355

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Contact Us

Follow Will Sherwood on Twitter?
Connect with Will Sherwood on LinkedIn
The Sherwood Group’s Facebook page
Will Sherwood’s Facebook page
The Sherwood Group’s website

Filed under: Interviews, advertising, advertising success, art direction, blog, blogs, business, business success, buzz, connectivity, copy writing, creative business, creative direction, design business, development, education, Facebook, free, graphic design, graphic design success, graphic design superstars, howto, illustration, illustration business, illustration success, inspiration, LinkedIn, reference, RSS, social media, social networks, success, success secrets, superstars, technology tips, tools, tutorial, Twitter, viral, word-of-mouth | 1 Comment